Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature";
	micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3743072759_3450628748"

--B_3743072759_3450628748
Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

> > I don=E2=80=99t fully understand this part. It seems perfectly natural =
to me
> > for an IPR holder to say =E2=80=9Cyou may use my IPR for free (maybe, o=
nly
> > with the context of this given standard). But in that case, you will
> > not sue me for use of your IPR (within the context of this standard).
>
> In addition to the points Paul raises,  companies have attempted far
> more ... ambitious ... disarmament clauses than the equitable one
> you're imagining. For example, instead of requiring mutual
> non-enforcement over a particular standard I'm thinking of one I saw
> proposed where they attempted to require the licensee release the
> licensor of *any* legal cause of action, not limited to patents, not
> limited to a specific standard, not even limited to a specific
> timeframe.

IMHO, those "more ambitious" would just fall outside of the acceptable spec=
trum, and should be considered as if the IPR holder wanted to charge money.

So, again - I don't see why we (IETF) cannot agree to require and accept a =
clear statement, basically expressing in legalese something like (let lawye=
rs refine it):

  I, the IPR holder <on behalf of company X>, allow free unlimited use of t=
his IPR within
  the context of this standard, on condition that others who hold IPR withi=
n the context
  of this standard, will allow me (<company X>) unlimited use of their IPR =
within the
  context of this standard.

I did not understand the points Paul was rising, because, obviously, for so=
mebody's IPR release to be taken seriously, that somebody must be authorize=
d to speak on behalf of the entity that owns/holds that IPR. So, for exampl=
e, it cannot be, e.g., one division of a company, while another division cl=
aims rights to the same IPR and demands totally different terms for its use=
.

Some of the Paul's concerns:

- Who is "you" in the case of a company with subdivisions that seem to be b=
oth part of the company and independent?

IMHO, the same IPR cannot simultaneously belong to different legal entities=
. There either is somebody who is authorized to speak and commit on behalf =
of the legal entity holding IPR, or there's nothing to talk about.

- Who is "you" in the case of a country? Does it apply to contractors writi=
ng software for that country?

I've no idea. I assume that if a legal entity holds an IPR in more than one=
 country, that whatever that entity states regarding licensing that IPR (fo=
r free, for a fee, whatever), would hold in all of those countries. Lawyers=
 can correct me.=20

- What if the patent holder is acquired by a different company, and you are=
 already actively suing that company for an obvious misuse of your patent?

I would imagine that legal agreements made by a company must stay valid aft=
er acquisitions/mergers.=20
Otherwise, what's to stop a company from buying another one and say "all th=
e loans, pension funds, etc. that the company I bought, are now null and vo=
id - I did not take those obligations and refuse to honor them now"?
Somebody with expertise in the Law, please step in and elucidate.

> So the specific terms matter *greatly*.  Absent firm and well informed
> guidance your standard corporate attorney will usually write terms
> which would be unacceptable for use with a public protocol standard,
> because that's the norm for contract drafting. . .

But the IETF does not have to accept those "standard" drafts, and can clear=
ly define what such a release form must state in order to be considered.

TNX


--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
pqc-forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to pqc-forum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/list.n=
ist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/C6191DD2-E2FD-4D96-9BA9-459B7CBA8753%40ll.mit.edu=
.

--B_3743072759_3450628748
Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
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--B_3743072759_3450628748--